[Shiver Metimbers]

Aka "Special Rules for Special People."

Though started on the occasion of multiple examples in a Market-Related thread of Board Members, regarding US Women's Soccer Players' insertion of their personal politics into the sport, taking pro/con positions, it is my hope that Board Members will use this or other threads to express positions so apparently deeply-felt and clearly Off-Topic.

The point of this thread, its "raison d'etre," is to provide a forum for exposing / supporting / objecting to what has become a rampant pattern in modern discourse in the West, namely appeal to a justification I name "Special Rules for Special People" for societally-significant application of Double Standards and Relativism.

I cannot move the relevant posts entire to this thread, so the following post "quotes" the un-conversation as it has so far developed and my commentary thereon.

Let the lambasting of me, or anyone else who may object to such Double Standards and Relativism, occur here rather than as a distraction from market-related commentary.

[Shiver Metimbers]

The "spark" was me objecting to Rapinoe et al. inserting their personal politics into what should be simply Sports, and doing so in a most egregiously inappropriate way:

Off-topic warning, can't keep quiet about this though.

Rapinoe, star of the US Women's Team currently playing in the Women's World Cup in France, has failed again to show proper respect and honor for the country that has done so much for her. Joined by many of her teammates, no hand over heart nor singing of the national anthem before the game.

What a contrast with every other team on the planet, and especially host France. Their team, every single one, and most of the fans sang La Marseillaise with gusto.

NFL lost my patronage years ago over this behavior, but at least those players and teams are private organizations. THIS team, like the Olympic teams, is NOT.
[EDIT: on re-reading, I realize I left an incorrect impression. Neither Olympic athletes, nor national team soccer players are funded by taxpayer money. So, in that sense they are "private." However, they are wearing US colors and represent this nation in an international Arena. In that sense they are very much not private.]

Fine, you don't respect me, right back at ya. Will be rooting for the Frogs.

OK sorry, back to regularly scheduled paint-drying.

This was followed by a Straw-Man argument that back-handedly accused me of hypocritically "wrapping myself in the flag" and then hypocritically/improperly being "unhappy" about some fellow American "expressing their opinion" when America is "supposed to be about freedom from conformity."

I've never understood those who are proud to be an American but then are unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions. I'm pretty sure our country is founded on freedom and liberty rather than conformity and unity of thought. I'm all for those who want to express their differing views (NFL players and Rapinoe), especially if they do it respectfully like Kaepernick. (I didn't watch Rapinoe during anthem, maybe her, too). That's the whole point of the American experiment, right?

[Shiver Metimbers]

My restrained post responding to this Straw-Man argument was intended to be as respectful as possible to what was a non-responsive post. The merits of my original post, i.e. that Rapinoe et al. had improperly inserted their divisive politics into what should be an occasion for ALL Americans to pull together, were left completely unaddressed.

Instead, a veiled accusation of hypocrisy and a lecture on what the poster regarded as fundamental American values was pompously offered.

I've never understood those who are proud to be an American but then are unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions.

To this, in a thread where fuller response is appropriate, I have these questions:

1. What, in any of my posts EVER, could induce anyone with a working brain cell to conclude that I am "proud to be an American" ??? Let me assure you, you know NOTHING of me and your "ass"umption is just that.

2. Where in my post did I object to ANYONE, Rapinoe included, having an opinion different from my own? In point of fact, I have not expressed any position pro, con or otherwise vis-a-vis her own, except to later note that hers is blatantly, self-evidently devoid of rational thought based on fact.

3. Did my post actually object or even address the substance of her "different opinion"? NO. The substance of her opinion was not in question, only the inappropriateness of her intentional broadly insulting and provocative method and timing of expressing an actually quite uninformed and hate-inspired opinion.

I'm pretty sure our country is founded on freedom and liberty rather than conformity and unity of thought.

Well, here we actually agree. Pity when some folks think that maxim as a spanking only applies when the opinion expressed, or the timing and manner of it, are called into question by other Americans who differ.

In other words, OK and YAY when K or R express disrespect for the country that made their opportunities so awesome, but BOO if someone else calls their timing, placement and/or manner of expression as churlish as it is. Bit of a Double Standard there.

It's clear that some folks subscribe to "Special Rules for Special People" not an "everyone is equal under the law" view.

[Shiver Metimbers]

It is truly a pity we can't enjoy literally anything anymore that is not infiltrated with opposite views of the culture war.

Here we completely agree. Thus my original post. I object to K and R force-feeding me their personal politics in what should be a Sports venue.

So, you posted this objection when K and R started this crap? 3 years ago? Last year? This year? Sorry I missed seeing your objection then.

Shame on both sides.

Well, from bad to worse. Kaepernick and Rapinoe forcefully and repeatedly insert their "culture war" crap into previously Sports-only venues for coming close to 3 years, Rapinoe ramps it by doing so while wearing US colors on an International stage this year...

and the one who objects to such inappropriate insertions is lumped with those doing the inserting.

Reminds me of typical modern bad parenting, "I don't care what the issue is or who started it, just stop it."

Tsk tsk. Relativism, "though I won't examine the merits of either, both sides are equally valid because held by different people" in all its inglory.

[algaeman]

To Shiver, et. al.

Though I don't totally 100% disagree with the Tuzo 29's post, nor do I 100% agree with your follow-up post, I will say that the quality of your post should be nominated for The Pulitzer. Overall, the level of discussion is beyond superb.

Another minor issue regarding the black balled "2nd rate" quarterback. I'm sure you're old enough to remember that Kaepernick took the 49ers to the Super Bowl v. the Colts . . .er The Ravens (I'm gettin' old, too). A game that the 49ers clearly should have won were it not for the egregious non-call of interference of a perfectly thrown TD pass to Crabtree in the end zone while the defender was literally riding his back in the last 120 or so seconds of the game. But, hey! The narrative was The Ray Lewis story in the MSM press. IMO, the fix was in. The narrative had to be fulfilled. Fairy tail ending. Mission accomplished.

And that's the big elephant in the room, the press - the MSM. A James Bond movie was even centered around the power of the press. It goes back to "The Sinking of The Main" and has not stopped. The narrative IS the thing . . . which brings us back to the protests in what used to be a neutral venue and the "uniting" of nations. But don't tell that to Hitler in the 1936 Olympics - Jesse Owens, the foil. It's been going on since the beginning of time - or at least in sports (e.g. ancient Greece).

So the culture wars, even in sports, has gone back far longer than the last three years. Inappropriate? Of course (also IMO) The biggest stage to back a point - agreed upon or disagreed - but getting it out there in spades? Of course. (Shades of the the raised fists at the 1968 Olympics praising "Black Power"and furthering a movement that changed the country).

It's a big pain in the ass if it's against the current MSM ("Deep State") narrative. But, sadly (again IMO) the Rapinoe stunts on the international stage seem clearly in line with the current MSM Globalist agenda. It's a very big war, the Globalists vs the Nationalists (not a dirty word). And it's not going to stop very soon.

But, kudos to you for your posts, Professor!

[Shiver Metimbers]

To Shiver, et. al.

Though I don't totally 100% disagree with the Tuzo 29's post, nor do I 100% agree with your follow-up post, I will say that the quality of your post should be nominated for The Pulitzer. Overall, the level of discussion is beyond superb.

Another minor issue regarding the black balled "2nd rate" quarterback. I'm sure you're old enough to remember that Kaepernick took the 49ers to the Super Bowl v. the Colts . . .er The Ravens (I'm gettin' old, too). A game that the 49ers clearly should have won were it not for the egregious non-call of interference of a perfectly thrown TD pass to Crabtree in the end zone while the defender was literally riding his back in the last 120 or so seconds of the game. But, hey! The narrative was The Ray Lewis story in the MSM press. IMO, the fix was in. The narrative had to be fulfilled. Fairy tail ending. Mission accomplished.

And that's the big elephant in the room, the press - the MSM. A James Bond movie was even centered around the power of the press. It goes back to "The Sinking of The Main" and has not stopped. The narrative IS the thing . . . which brings us back to the protests in what used to be a neutral venue and the "uniting" of nations. But don't tell that to Hitler in the 1936 Olympics - Jesse Owens, the foil. It's been going on since the beginning of time - or at least in sports (e.g. ancient Greece).

So the culture wars, even in sports, has gone back far longer than the last three years. Inappropriate? Of course (also IMO) The biggest stage to back a point - agreed upon or disagreed - but getting it out there in spades? Of course. (Shades of the the raised fists at the 1968 Olympics praising "Black Power"and furthering a movement that changed the country).

It's a big pain in the ass if it's against the current MSM ("Deep State") narrative. But, sadly (again IMO) the Rapinoe stunts on the international stage seem clearly in line with the current MSM Globalist agenda. It's a very big war, the Globalists vs the Nationalists (not a dirty word). And it's not going to stop very soon.

But, kudos to you for your posts, Professor!

Your post really kicks the level of discourse up a notch, so "top marks" and kudos back at ya!

Zeroth, I sit corrected regarding Kaepernick and his skill level, I had quite forgotten his once-potent performances with the '49ers. Guilty of talking out of my hat there, bad form and no excuse. Thank you sir may I have another

To be honest, the NFL was already on probation with me over the continuing degradation of the game via continuous and bad-to-worse rule changes, as well as multiple examples of awful refereeing that made one wonder whether "the fix was in", so I wasn't paying as much attention then as I used to do. Didn't even watch that Superbowl. Bit of homework to do there, better late than never I hope. (I like the German fuller phrase, Besser spät als nie, aber besser nicht spät.)

First, you've hit on a more fundamentally important point historically, and I bow to your larger vision and connecting of Bigger Dots. Thanks for reminding me of the 1936 Olympics, the "Superman" propaganda and the shameful treatment of Jesse Owens both there and here. Mussolini's (ab)use of the 2nd World Cup in 1934 would be a slightly earlier but no less egregious example. I guess one has to admit that some political posturing and propaganda was involved in the First Revived Olympics in 1896, too.

All in all, point well made and well taken: the use of Sports to further political postures is not new, maybe stretches back through all of human society. Yep, you nailed that one.

Perhaps what IS new in this context: it is not now governments doing it as a furtherance of their unification goals, generally with the support of the bulk of their own populations who already wish to proceed along such paths (ex. Italy and Germany aforementioned, possibly ancient Greeks?), it is being done by individuals who quite clearly intend to divide the populace, and who do not have the support of even a majority thereof. It is not "flipping the bird" to rival countries, it is flipping that bird to their own country and everyone in it who doesn't agree with them. In a word, disrespectful and a case of shiteing where you eat.

2nd, you've assigned me homework regarding the use of sports venues for political purposes in ancient Greece. Studied ancient Greece pretty thoroughly back in the day, so either my memory blinked again or my classes and subsequent personal reading never covered that aspect. Another excuse to do more reading and research, tone up a few couch-potato brain cells, yippee!

3rd, well-made points regarding "venue for impact" both here and in the '68 Olympics.

And finally, most importantly and fundamentally, the Big Elephant discussion. Wow, yes, great, spot-on and other highly-impressed expressions!!

That succinct bit of your post deserves more consideration than I can give at the moment, domestic insistence taking me afk for now.

Thanks again for the very thoughtful and insightful post. Rep!

[Shiver Metimbers]

The current attempt by Nancy Bellicosi et al. at backdoor impeachment of Trump for properly requesting Ukraine to look into Russian/Ukrainian involvement in "influencing" the 2016 elections takes this week's Double Standards cake.

I don't refer to the naked coup aspects of the Dem's non-existent case against Trump, but to the complete failure of the GOP from 2017-19, when they controlled House, Senate and the Presidency, to nail the Dems (Hillary in particular) for "collusion" with Russia and Ukraine in the 2016 election, Joe Biden and his nepotized som Hunter for dirty quid-pro-quo deals with Ukrainian and Chinese players.

Ain't at all too late, boys and girls. Where the hell is Barr and his many-months-old and so-far empty inquiry into what really happened?

Ukrainian MP reveals Vice-President Biden personally received $900,000 for lobbying on behalf of Burisma

[tuzo29]

The "spark" was me objecting to Rapinoe et al. inserting their personal politics into what should be simply Sports, and doing so in a most egregiously inappropriate way:

Off-topic warning, can't keep quiet about this though.

Rapinoe, star of the US Women's Team currently playing in the Women's World Cup in France, has failed again to show proper respect and honor for the country that has done so much for her.  Joined by many of her teammates, no hand over heart nor singing of the national anthem before the game.

What a contrast with every other team on the planet, and especially host France.  Their team, every single one, and most of the fans sang La Marseillaise with gusto.

NFL lost my patronage years ago over this behavior, but at least those players and teams are private organizations.  THIS team, like the Olympic teams, is NOT. 
[EDIT:  on re-reading, I realize I left an incorrect impression. Neither Olympic athletes, nor national team soccer players are funded by taxpayer money. So, in that sense they are "private."  However, they are wearing US colors and represent this nation in an international Arena. In that sense they are very much not private.]

Fine, you don't respect me, right back at ya.  Will be rooting for the Frogs.

OK sorry, back to regularly scheduled paint-drying.

This was followed by a Straw-Man argument that back-handedly accused me of hypocritically "wrapping myself in the flag" and then hypocritically/improperly being "unhappy" about some fellow American "expressing their opinion" when America is "supposed to be about freedom from conformity."

I've never understood those who are proud to be an American but then are unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions. I'm pretty sure our country is founded on freedom and liberty rather than conformity and unity of thought. I'm all for those who want to express their differing views (NFL players and Rapinoe), especially if they do it respectfully like Kaepernick. (I didn't watch Rapinoe during anthem, maybe her, too). That's the whole point of the American experiment, right?

So going back to your old posts, this once seems to be important since you created a new topic/thread for it. I think I understand your perspective. All Americans should respect the flag and national anthem what they stand for. Please let me know if I'm wrong here.

This is a very broad topic with lots of potential for tangents and rabbit holes. To simply respond to your comments here, I'll start with my assumption that you were not happy with. I assumed that expecting those representing our country to conform to the standard forms of national pride and respect meant that you had national pride. I'm not sure how we got to the point where this is the argument. I'm sorry I made an assumption about your level of national pride. I think (another assumption coming, but I have to start somewhere) that you read something in my words that I did not intend. I only wanted to say that it appeared you have a respect for the flag and the national anthem and simplified that to "proud to be an American". You clearly read more into it that I was trying to say. For the record, I'm proud to be an American. I'm not proud of everything America has done, but I doubt anyone is. 

So on to my only point on this topic. The first amendment gives Americans the right to protest. How we protest can come in many forms. I think that Kaepernick and Rapinoe and many others choosing not to stand and/or sing the national anthem is a very American thing to do. They are protesting their government/society and the founding fathers wrote that protesting is a right into the Constitution because they knew it was a needed thing for a society to survive. You are correct that these professional athletes have been given a lot by our country. That shouldn't take away their right to protest if they are unhappy with something. I think (again, correct me if I'm making a wrong assumption here) that you find the timing of their protestations to be the problem. That is, they shouldn't do it in front of crowds at a sporting event when they are representing their country. My view is that if we start telling people when they get their Constitutional rights and when they don't get them, then they aren't really rights.

[Shiver Metimbers]

The "spark" was me objecting to Rapinoe et al. inserting their personal politics into what should be simply Sports, and doing so in a most egregiously inappropriate way:

Off-topic warning, can't keep quiet about this though.

Rapinoe, star of the US Women's Team currently playing in the Women's World Cup in France, has failed again to show proper respect and honor for the country that has done so much for her.  Joined by many of her teammates, no hand over heart nor singing of the national anthem before the game.

What a contrast with every other team on the planet, and especially host France.  Their team, every single one, and most of the fans sang La Marseillaise with gusto.

NFL lost my patronage years ago over this behavior, but at least those players and teams are private organizations.  THIS team, like the Olympic teams, is NOT. 
[EDIT:  on re-reading, I realize I left an incorrect impression. Neither Olympic athletes, nor national team soccer players are funded by taxpayer money. So, in that sense they are "private."  However, they are wearing US colors and represent this nation in an international Arena. In that sense they are very much not private.]

Fine, you don't respect me, right back at ya.  Will be rooting for the Frogs.

OK sorry, back to regularly scheduled paint-drying.

This was followed by a Straw-Man argument that back-handedly accused me of hypocritically "wrapping myself in the flag" and then hypocritically/improperly being "unhappy" about some fellow American "expressing their opinion" when America is "supposed to be about freedom from conformity."

I've never understood those who are proud to be an American but then are unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions. I'm pretty sure our country is founded on freedom and liberty rather than conformity and unity of thought. I'm all for those who want to express their differing views (NFL players and Rapinoe), especially if they do it respectfully like Kaepernick. (I didn't watch Rapinoe during anthem, maybe her, too). That's the whole point of the American experiment, right?

So going back to your old posts, this once seems to be important since you created a new topic/thread for it. I think I understand your perspective. All Americans should respect the flag and national anthem what they stand for. Please let me know if I'm wrong here.

This is a very broad topic with lots of potential for tangents and rabbit holes. To simply respond to your comments here, I'll start with my assumption that you were not happy with. I assumed that expecting those representing our country to conform to the standard forms of national pride and respect meant that you had national pride. I'm not sure how we got to the point where this is the argument. I'm sorry I made an assumption about your level of national pride. I think (another assumption coming, but I have to start somewhere) that you read something in my words that I did not intend. I only wanted to say that it appeared you have a respect for the flag and the national anthem and simplified that to "proud to be an American". You clearly read more into it that I was trying to say. For the record, I'm proud to be an American. I'm not proud of everything America has done, but I doubt anyone is. 

So on to my only point on this topic. The first amendment gives Americans the right to protest. How we protest can come in many forms. I think that Kaepernick and Rapinoe and many others choosing not to stand and/or sing the national anthem is a very American thing to do. They are protesting their government/society and the founding fathers wrote that protesting is a right into the Constitution because they knew it was a needed thing for a society to survive. You are correct that these professional athletes have been given a lot by our country. That shouldn't take away their right to protest if they are unhappy with something. I think (again, correct me if I'm making a wrong assumption here) that you find the timing of their protestations to be the problem. That is, they shouldn't do it in front of crowds at a sporting event when they are representing their country. My view is that if we start telling people when they get their Constitutional rights and when they don't get them, then they aren't really rights.

Mmm, I think you've still missed my perspective (and my point) entirely. It is NOT that all Americans should 'respect the flag and national anthem [and] what they stand for' at all. I don't, at least not much these days, since my nation and especially its elected officials don't... but there is a time for all things under heaven, and THAT should be respected.

For the record, and as an aside, I am not particularly proud to be an American - how could I be given the country created after the War of Northern Aggression and all that logically followed to the present? - nor am I particularly proud even to be a Texan, given how craven and duplicitous and corrupt its people have allowed its government, even down to the local level, to become.

To return to our muttons... One should not be careless about one's actions and their effects. I am wholly committed to the importance of recognizing our God-given Rights, and that includes Free Speech. Everyone's Free Speech, not just those with whom one happens to agree. I am also wholly committed to the wisdom of founding society on the Rule of Law, not the rule of lawmen who can and do re-define what 'law' and 'rights' are at whim.

First, with regards to Rapinoe (and later the rest of the US women's team): given a large international audience in a World Cup setting, wearing US colors provided for her, and representing this country *as a country, in its entirety*, my objection was *entirely* that the time and place taken for disrespect and intentional division was ungracious, ungrateful, crass, bad form, repugnant - all deleterious enough - but societally suicidal in its aim and effect.

I actually pray and work for improvement of this American society, and object to those destroying any chance of success in that endeavor. Lots of potential here, more than anywhere else I can name, and to see that goal intentionally undermined gets my goat.

Rapinoe's display did not increase anyone's freedom or improve prospects for anyone in this country: that was neither its effect nor was that its intent, as far as I can tell. The effect, at any rate, was to further divide us - bad enough - but to weaken us with respect to The World's view of us as a whole - worse - and, worst of all, was done either knowing its basis was a lie, or out of fanaticism that refused to know easily available truth, i.e. willful ignorance. In either case, it merited scorn and approbation, which I expressed *as is my right.*

My free speech was just that: I am as free to object to her repugnancy, and to state my rejection of support for it, as she is to display it. You engaged wholeheartedly in applying a Double Standard by accusing me of 'offending against Free Speech' and 'abrogating' her rights by exercising my own merely because you agreed with her expression and disagreed with mine, not because I violated any bit of her right to free speech, and yet the latter was exactly the accusation and back-handed defense of her atrocious display.

THAT is precisely an example of someone applying 'Double Standards and Relativism.' It certainly IS a big topic, thus the thread: it is a practice now all-too-common, so common people give it no thought and do so unthinkingly, which spells the death of any society pretending to the Rule of Law.

Second, the entire premise of Kaepernick and Rapinoe and BLM crap is based on a lie, a hate-mongering divisive tribalizing gaslighting lie intended for a single purpose: tearing this society apart. That Rapinoe furthered said lie on a stage afforded her by the country she hates, wearing US colors, in short sh*tting where she ate, biting the hand that fed her, was a Bridge Too Far.

Reread my subsequent posts after the one you quoted. If I was unclear there or here, let me know, I hope I can clarify more fully.

[tuzo29]

Please let me know when I accused you of 'offending against Free Speech'. I can't find when I said that.

Also, please explain the lie that these athletes protests are based on. I know it's obvious to you, but not to me.

[Shiver Metimbers]

Please let me know when I accused you of 'offending against Free Speech'. I can't find when I said that.

Right here. 

I've never understood those who are proud to be an American but then are unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions. I'm pretty sure our country is founded on freedom and liberty rather than conformity and unity of thought.

This implied that I was 'proud to be an American' but was 'unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions.' In other words, a hypocrite, who wants free speech curtailed, at least 'for them, not me'. In short, a Twitler.

Answered fully in post #3 above.

Also, please explain the lie that these athletes protests are based on. I know it's obvious to you, but not to me.

This statement appears to me to arise from ignorance of the facts. If I have misunderstood, then the following is non-responsive, but here's what I'm talking about.

The entire premise of Kaepernick's kneeling during the national anthem - and no, that is NOT "respectful," it is incredibly *disrespectful*, was intended to be such for its powerful effect, which it has had, same as the Black Power fist-pump on the Olympic stage algaeman referenced above - and the subsequent #metooers like Rapinoe and BLM is the lie that blacks are targeted in this country by police for unjust shootings, i.e. murders born of racism.

If you are so truly uninformed of the actual facts regarding who shoots whom, and when, and why, you have a lot of homework waiting. I deeply respect any well-informed opinion that differs from my own well-informed opinion on any subject, because my view / opinion / theory could be wrong. Sometimes it has been changed by superior grasp of the facts and a better theory / opinion.

I have little respect (ok honestly none) for opinions (or theories or hypotheses), especially if held strongly, that ignore mountains of evidence and facts.

In the first instance, the incident in Ferguson as portrayed in the media, the 'couldn't be ignored any longer' justification for this pernicious campaign that 'justified' the billions of dollars in burned business, destroyed neighborhoods (typically those of the very people the BLMers and Antifa thugs claim to favor) and many murdered in 2020, was a LIE. "Hands up don't shoot" is a LIE.

Look it up. Then look up the rest of the so-called 'blacks targeted' incidents and the general stats, then let's talk.

[tuzo29]

Please let me know when I accused you of 'offending against Free Speech'. I can't find when I said that.

Right here. 

I've never understood those who are proud to be an American but then are unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions. I'm pretty sure our country is founded on freedom and liberty rather than conformity and unity of thought.

This implied that I was 'proud to be an American' but was 'unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions.'  In other words, a hypocrite, who wants free speech curtailed, at least 'for them, not me'.  In short, a Twitler.

Answered fully in post #3 above.

Also, please explain the lie that these athletes protests are based on. I know it's obvious to you, but not to me.

This statement appears to me to arise from ignorance of the facts.  If I have misunderstood, then the following is non-responsive, but here's what I'm talking about.

The entire premise of Kaepernick's kneeling during the national anthem - and no, that is NOT "respectful," it is incredibly *disrespectful*, was intended to be such for its powerful effect, which it has had, same as the Black Power fist-pump on the Olympic stage algaeman referenced above - and the subsequent #metooers like Rapinoe and BLM is the lie that blacks are targeted in this country by police for unjust shootings, i.e. murders born of racism.

If you are so truly uninformed of the actual facts regarding who shoots whom, and when, and why, you have a lot of homework waiting.  I deeply respect any well-informed opinion that differs from my own well-informed opinion on any subject, because my view / opinion / theory could be wrong.  Sometimes it has been changed by superior grasp of the facts and a better theory / opinion. 

I have little respect (ok honestly none) for opinions (or theories or hypotheses), especially if held strongly, that ignore mountains of evidence and facts.

In the first instance, the incident in Ferguson as portrayed in the media, the 'couldn't be ignored any longer' justification for this pernicious campaign that 'justified' the billions of dollars in burned business, destroyed neighborhoods (typically those of the very people the BLMers and Antifa thugs claim to favor) and many murdered in 2020, was a LIE.  "Hands up don't shoot" is a LIE. 

Look it up.  Then look up the rest of the so-called 'blacks targeted' incidents and the general stats, then let's talk.

I tried to explain what I meant in the post when I said proud to be an American. I guess that wasn't heard. I am truly sorry you found it so offensive. I don't know what more to say. We clearly don't always use words the same way. In reading post #3, the word respect clearly doesn't mean the same thing to you and me. You find things disrespectful that I don't and vice versa. What is proper respect for you is not always what I view as respectful. I'm not sure there's a way to reconcile this. Just to give an example, you find Kaepernick kneeling as very disrespectful. I view taking a knee (like youth athletes do when someone is injured in a game) as a sign of respect. Kaepernick chose this position after talking to a former green beret about what would be a way to protest but still be respectful. Rapinoe and others followed his lead to silently voice their agreement with him. I realize you find it disrepectful, but making eye contact can be respectful or disrespectful depending on where you are in the world. I think that we should try to understand what someone is trying to say with their actions rather than assume they mean what we would mean if we did the same action.  

As for the second part, I don't know what mountains of evidence and facts you are talking about. If you are talking about the fact that black people kill people more frequently than white people kill people, that has nothing to do with the BLM movement or what they are trying to change. The main point is that police officers kill unarmed black people more frequently than they kill unarmed white people. Please provide some statistics to show that the frequency of white unarmed people are killed by police as frequently as black unarmed people. Here is a study that shows the opposite:

https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/fat...in-whites/

A second part of the BLM movement is that black men get longer sentences for the same crimes than the sentences white men get:

https://www.wtkr.com/investigations/data...ame-crimes

I'm not sure what evidence you have read. I'm open to looking at it. A side note on this: I would appreciate it if you would stop calling me uninformed/ignorant. You did the same thing when it came to electric vehicles. It makes continuing the conversation difficult. 

Here's a question for you: 

Why are black men more likely to commit crimes and end up in prison? 

I can think of a few reasons:

1. They are less likely to be gainfully employed and therefore more time for mischief and less to lose.
2. They are surrounded by crime and it becomes normalized. 
3. They are less educated and therefore more likely to make mistakes. 
4. Please come up with something else if I missed something...

1, 2, and 3, all point to either a lack of opportunity or a lack of moral character. 
If opportunity, then what should society do to fix this? 
If a lack of moral character, is that due to circumstances (which is really not having the same opportunities as white people) or something innate? I would like to believe there is nothing innately different across races, so I view the problem as one of fewer opportunities for black people vs white people in our country. Please let me know if you know of a different root cause or if you think it is innate differences in races. If so, we can tackle whatever root cause you think it is. 

This brings me back to my question: If black people have fewer opportunities (employment, education, etc.), how do we as a society fix this? Not what current politicians do or don't do, but what do you think is a real solution to this problem. Anything goes. Religious, financial, education, whatever. Give me your best solution.

[Shiver Metimbers]

[quote="tuzo29" pid="381597" dateline="1669650597"]
Please let me know when I accused you of 'offending against Free Speech'. I can't find when I said that.

Right here. 

I've never understood those who are proud to be an American but then are unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions. I'm pretty sure our country is founded on freedom and liberty rather than conformity and unity of thought.

This implied that I was 'proud to be an American' but was 'unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions.'  In other words, a hypocrite, who wants free speech curtailed, at least 'for them, not me'.  In short, a Twitler.

Answered fully in post #3 above.

Also, please explain the lie that these athletes protests are based on. I know it's obvious to you, but not to me.

This statement appears to me to arise from ignorance of the facts.  If I have misunderstood, then the following is non-responsive, but here's what I'm talking about.

The entire premise of Kaepernick's kneeling during the national anthem - and no, that is NOT "respectful," it is incredibly *disrespectful*, was intended to be such for its powerful effect, which it has had, same as the Black Power fist-pump on the Olympic stage algaeman referenced above - and the subsequent #metooers like Rapinoe and BLM is the lie that blacks are targeted in this country by police for unjust shootings, i.e. murders born of racism.

If you are so truly uninformed of the actual facts regarding who shoots whom, and when, and why, you have a lot of homework waiting.  I deeply respect any well-informed opinion that differs from my own well-informed opinion on any subject, because my view / opinion / theory could be wrong.  Sometimes it has been changed by superior grasp of the facts and a better theory / opinion. 

I have little respect (ok honestly none) for opinions (or theories or hypotheses), especially if held strongly, that ignore mountains of evidence and facts.

In the first instance, the incident in Ferguson as portrayed in the media, the 'couldn't be ignored any longer' justification for this pernicious campaign that 'justified' the billions of dollars in burned business, destroyed neighborhoods (typically those of the very people the BLMers and Antifa thugs claim to favor) and many murdered in 2020, was a LIE.  "Hands up don't shoot" is a LIE. 

Look it up.  Then look up the rest of the so-called 'blacks targeted' incidents and the general stats, then let's talk.

I tried to explain what I meant in the post when I said proud to be an American. I guess that wasn't heard. 

Sure I heard it, but it's quite immaterial with respect to claiming I 'was unhappy with Rapinoe expressing herself.' Whether I was a 'proud American' by your definition, or mine, or anyone's, matters not a whit: I exercised my freedom of speech, you upbraided me for doing so with the straw-man argument that I was somehow negating or objecting to Rapinoe exercising her freedom of speech, contrary to this country's foundational principles of liberty.

I did no such thing. I objected solely to time, place and manner. She's free to be a public cretin, and I'm free to call her out for it. You want to defend her choice of venue, wearing US colors and representing the US on the international stage while taking a knee to call the entire country racist, fine, but do that instead of pretending I somehow attempted to abrogate her rights.

I am truly sorry you found it so offensive. I don't know what more to say. We clearly don't always use words the same way. In reading post #3, the word respect clearly doesn't mean the same thing to you and me. You find things disrespectful that I don't and vice versa. What is proper respect for you is not always what I view as respectful. I'm not sure there's a way to reconcile this. Just to give an example, you find Kaepernick kneeling as very disrespectful. I view taking a knee (like youth athletes do when someone is injured in a game) as a sign of respect. Kaepernick chose this position after talking to a former green beret about what would be a way to protest but still be respectful. Rapinoe and others followed his lead to silently voice their agreement with him. I realize you find it disrepectful, but making eye contact can be respectful or disrespectful depending on where you are in the world. I think that we should try to understand what someone is trying to say with their actions rather than assume they mean what we would mean if we did the same action.  

Clearly we disagree, and maybe that's all there is to say. To me, and to the millions of other Americans who find taking a knee during our anthem disrespectful - extremely so when done on an international stage, wearing US colors and purporting to represent the USA - no justification for calling the entire country racist contrary to fact will be accepted.

Want to abstain from voicing (singing along) or demonstrating (hand over heart, or salute if in uniform) support for this country during the anthem and flag-display without blatant disrespect? Stand in silence with hands at sides. Pretty obvious expression of anti/non-solidarity without slapping anyone's face with a LIE.

FYI, 'taking a knee' when a player is injured is brand new, and is a direct outgrowth from the LIE that was Ferguson and thence BLM. It never existed before anywhere in history, even in that of this very young country.

Prior to the last decade or three, play was stopped when a player was injured only long enough to carry the player off the field so injuries could be attended OFF the field, and play resumed asap (with a substitute if one was available / allowed). Period.

As for the second part, I don't know what mountains of evidence and facts you are talking about. If you are talking about the fact that black people kill people more frequently than white people kill people, that has nothing to do with the BLM movement or what they are trying to change. The main point is that police officers kill unarmed black people more frequently than they kill unarmed white people. Please provide some statistics to show that the frequency of white unarmed people are killed by police as frequently as black unarmed people. Here is a study that shows the opposite:

https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/fat...in-whites/

A second part of the BLM movement is that black men get longer sentences for the same crimes than the sentences white men get:

https://www.wtkr.com/investigations/data...ame-crimes

I'm not sure what evidence you have read. I'm open to looking at it. A side note on this: I would appreciate it if you would stop calling me uninformed/ignorant. You did the same thing when it came to electric vehicles. It makes continuing the conversation difficult. 

I am quite aware of the stats in the articles you linked that claim support for the notion that blacks are generally targeted. I am also aware of those that flatly contradict it. I have read many studies and articles purporting to prove the one and the other. On balance, I found the latter wholly persuasive, the former firmly debunked as misguided at best, propaganda at worst, and best characterized as "statistics" as in the Mark Twain line, "there's lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Have you bothered to inform yourself of the many studies that contradict your links? Why do you expect or require that I spoonfeed you?

A. Did you look up the Ferguson LIE? Why not? it's easy, start listening and reading to the voices that may broaden your knowledge.

• https://search.brave.com/search?q=fergus...ce=desktop

B. Did you search for and then read articles and studies that contradict those you've listed as support?

• You could start with the writings etc. of Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, and go on from there, https://search.brave.com/search?q=sowell...source=web, broaden the search to find many studies debunking those you linked.

Apparently not. THAT is what I mean by being willfully ignorant. Do your own homework, then let's talk.

Here's a question for you: 

Why are black men more likely to commit crimes and end up in prison? 

I can think of a few reasons:

1. They are less likely to be gainfully employed and therefore more time for mischief and less to lose.
2. They are surrounded by crime and it becomes normalized. 
3. They are less educated and therefore more likely to make mistakes. 
4. Please come up with something else if I missed something...

1, 2, and 3, all point to either a lack of opportunity or a lack of moral character. 
If opportunity, then what should society do to fix this? 
If a lack of moral character, is that due to circumstances (which is really not having the same opportunities as white people) or something innate? I would like to believe there is nothing innately different across races, so I view the problem as one of fewer opportunities for black people vs white people in our country. Please let me know if you know of a different root cause or if you think it is innate differences in races. If so, we can tackle whatever root cause you think it is. 

This brings me back to my question: If black people have fewer opportunities (employment, education, etc.), how do we as a society fix this? Not what current politicians do or don't do, but what do you think is a real solution to this problem. Anything goes. Religious, financial, education, whatever. Give me your best solution.

#4 Most importantly, 64% of black children grow up in broken homes with no father and no father image. In its absence, gangsta grew to be dominant. Bad outlooks, worldview, and especially bad habits result.

This is a direct consequence of Fedzilla programs begun in the 1960s purportedly aimed at 'helping' single-mother households, then ~5-8% of black families, and rapidly and permanently increasing to >50% of black families (and rapidly increased in white, Asian and Latin families as well) because you get more of what you subsidize, less of what you tax.

Solution? A good start would be stop doing harm.
Stop actively sabotaging families. Single mother gets married, she loses benefits. Stupid.
Single father gets zero help from State courts on collecting child support. Stupid.
Children who cannot read are bumped up grade after grade, end up in/after high school unemployable. Stupid.

I've got several students in 8th grade who cannot read at 1st grade level. This is not an overstatement. I'm tutoring one on how to sound out words, fer chrissakes, and he is not the only one needing such help, but I've got only so much time.

First and best thing to try, imho, is what has worked for millenia: strengthen the nuclear family, return to the days of parents being responsible for their children instead of gubmint.

Gubmint voluntarily give up its acquired powers after once being allowed into the smallest details of our lives? The People successfully reforming a standing gubmint? Love to see it, actively working for it for decades, zero prospect of peaceful success, imo.

Major upheaval or descent to worse madness the most likely paths, alas.

[tuzo29]

Michael Brown is not the only incident. It seems to be the one you like to focus on because it was a catalyst. Here are all the others:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_un...ted_States

Please note that the facts of the Ferguson case are accurately described on this page. I don't know why you think that because there are people who don't know the facts of that one case it means the entire history of police killing unarmed black people irrelevant. If you want to convince me that Ferguson is the norm and police are always good, please send the Larry Elder videos for the rest of the hundreds of victims on this list. Until then, I am unlikely to change my view that how we police and prosecute people is a significant part of the racial tension in our country.

I looked for evidence that the data about black people being killed disproportionally and all I can find is that this fact is true. They are killed more frequently per capita than whites. That is not a lie. What I also found from your search link is an explanation for this is that they are more likely to commit crimes. That's a reasonable explanation, but it doesn't debunk the facts. It explains them. While I agree with the basic premise of that explanation, it's not a complete explanation. To get a complete explanation we have to understand why black people commit more crimes. 

This is the root of the problem. I attempted to address this in my last post. You brought up the lack of father's in children's lives. This is definitely important. There is more than this for sure, but I agree that we need to do all we can to strengthen families in our country. 

Did you have any thoughts on my discussion about respect in my last post? 

No more time right now. I'll respond with more later.