[Shiver Metimbers]

[quote="tuzo29" pid="381597" dateline="1669650597"]
Please let me know when I accused you of 'offending against Free Speech'. I can't find when I said that.

Right here. 

I've never understood those who are proud to be an American but then are unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions. I'm pretty sure our country is founded on freedom and liberty rather than conformity and unity of thought.

This implied that I was 'proud to be an American' but was 'unhappy when other Americans express their differing opinions.'  In other words, a hypocrite, who wants free speech curtailed, at least 'for them, not me'.  In short, a Twitler.

Answered fully in post #3 above.

Also, please explain the lie that these athletes protests are based on. I know it's obvious to you, but not to me.

This statement appears to me to arise from ignorance of the facts.  If I have misunderstood, then the following is non-responsive, but here's what I'm talking about.

The entire premise of Kaepernick's kneeling during the national anthem - and no, that is NOT "respectful," it is incredibly *disrespectful*, was intended to be such for its powerful effect, which it has had, same as the Black Power fist-pump on the Olympic stage algaeman referenced above - and the subsequent #metooers like Rapinoe and BLM is the lie that blacks are targeted in this country by police for unjust shootings, i.e. murders born of racism.

If you are so truly uninformed of the actual facts regarding who shoots whom, and when, and why, you have a lot of homework waiting.  I deeply respect any well-informed opinion that differs from my own well-informed opinion on any subject, because my view / opinion / theory could be wrong.  Sometimes it has been changed by superior grasp of the facts and a better theory / opinion. 

I have little respect (ok honestly none) for opinions (or theories or hypotheses), especially if held strongly, that ignore mountains of evidence and facts.

In the first instance, the incident in Ferguson as portrayed in the media, the 'couldn't be ignored any longer' justification for this pernicious campaign that 'justified' the billions of dollars in burned business, destroyed neighborhoods (typically those of the very people the BLMers and Antifa thugs claim to favor) and many murdered in 2020, was a LIE.  "Hands up don't shoot" is a LIE. 

Look it up.  Then look up the rest of the so-called 'blacks targeted' incidents and the general stats, then let's talk.

I tried to explain what I meant in the post when I said proud to be an American. I guess that wasn't heard. 

Sure I heard it, but it's quite immaterial with respect to claiming I 'was unhappy with Rapinoe expressing herself.' Whether I was a 'proud American' by your definition, or mine, or anyone's, matters not a whit: I exercised my freedom of speech, you upbraided me for doing so with the straw-man argument that I was somehow negating or objecting to Rapinoe exercising her freedom of speech, contrary to this country's foundational principles of liberty.

I did no such thing. I objected solely to time, place and manner. She's free to be a public cretin, and I'm free to call her out for it. You want to defend her choice of venue, wearing US colors and representing the US on the international stage while taking a knee to call the entire country racist, fine, but do that instead of pretending I somehow attempted to abrogate her rights.

I am truly sorry you found it so offensive. I don't know what more to say. We clearly don't always use words the same way. In reading post #3, the word respect clearly doesn't mean the same thing to you and me. You find things disrespectful that I don't and vice versa. What is proper respect for you is not always what I view as respectful. I'm not sure there's a way to reconcile this. Just to give an example, you find Kaepernick kneeling as very disrespectful. I view taking a knee (like youth athletes do when someone is injured in a game) as a sign of respect. Kaepernick chose this position after talking to a former green beret about what would be a way to protest but still be respectful. Rapinoe and others followed his lead to silently voice their agreement with him. I realize you find it disrepectful, but making eye contact can be respectful or disrespectful depending on where you are in the world. I think that we should try to understand what someone is trying to say with their actions rather than assume they mean what we would mean if we did the same action.  

Clearly we disagree, and maybe that's all there is to say. To me, and to the millions of other Americans who find taking a knee during our anthem disrespectful - extremely so when done on an international stage, wearing US colors and purporting to represent the USA - no justification for calling the entire country racist contrary to fact will be accepted.

Want to abstain from voicing (singing along) or demonstrating (hand over heart, or salute if in uniform) support for this country during the anthem and flag-display without blatant disrespect? Stand in silence with hands at sides. Pretty obvious expression of anti/non-solidarity without slapping anyone's face with a LIE.

FYI, 'taking a knee' when a player is injured is brand new, and is a direct outgrowth from the LIE that was Ferguson and thence BLM. It never existed before anywhere in history, even in that of this very young country.

Prior to the last decade or three, play was stopped when a player was injured only long enough to carry the player off the field so injuries could be attended OFF the field, and play resumed asap (with a substitute if one was available / allowed). Period.

As for the second part, I don't know what mountains of evidence and facts you are talking about. If you are talking about the fact that black people kill people more frequently than white people kill people, that has nothing to do with the BLM movement or what they are trying to change. The main point is that police officers kill unarmed black people more frequently than they kill unarmed white people. Please provide some statistics to show that the frequency of white unarmed people are killed by police as frequently as black unarmed people. Here is a study that shows the opposite:

https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/fat...in-whites/

A second part of the BLM movement is that black men get longer sentences for the same crimes than the sentences white men get:

https://www.wtkr.com/investigations/data...ame-crimes

I'm not sure what evidence you have read. I'm open to looking at it. A side note on this: I would appreciate it if you would stop calling me uninformed/ignorant. You did the same thing when it came to electric vehicles. It makes continuing the conversation difficult. 

I am quite aware of the stats in the articles you linked that claim support for the notion that blacks are generally targeted. I am also aware of those that flatly contradict it. I have read many studies and articles purporting to prove the one and the other. On balance, I found the latter wholly persuasive, the former firmly debunked as misguided at best, propaganda at worst, and best characterized as "statistics" as in the Mark Twain line, "there's lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Have you bothered to inform yourself of the many studies that contradict your links? Why do you expect or require that I spoonfeed you?

A. Did you look up the Ferguson LIE? Why not? it's easy, start listening and reading to the voices that may broaden your knowledge.

• https://search.brave.com/search?q=fergus...ce=desktop

B. Did you search for and then read articles and studies that contradict those you've listed as support?

• You could start with the writings etc. of Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, and go on from there, https://search.brave.com/search?q=sowell...source=web, broaden the search to find many studies debunking those you linked.

Apparently not. THAT is what I mean by being willfully ignorant. Do your own homework, then let's talk.

Here's a question for you: 

Why are black men more likely to commit crimes and end up in prison? 

I can think of a few reasons:

1. They are less likely to be gainfully employed and therefore more time for mischief and less to lose.
2. They are surrounded by crime and it becomes normalized. 
3. They are less educated and therefore more likely to make mistakes. 
4. Please come up with something else if I missed something...

1, 2, and 3, all point to either a lack of opportunity or a lack of moral character. 
If opportunity, then what should society do to fix this? 
If a lack of moral character, is that due to circumstances (which is really not having the same opportunities as white people) or something innate? I would like to believe there is nothing innately different across races, so I view the problem as one of fewer opportunities for black people vs white people in our country. Please let me know if you know of a different root cause or if you think it is innate differences in races. If so, we can tackle whatever root cause you think it is. 

This brings me back to my question: If black people have fewer opportunities (employment, education, etc.), how do we as a society fix this? Not what current politicians do or don't do, but what do you think is a real solution to this problem. Anything goes. Religious, financial, education, whatever. Give me your best solution.

#4 Most importantly, 64% of black children grow up in broken homes with no father and no father image. In its absence, gangsta grew to be dominant. Bad outlooks, worldview, and especially bad habits result.

This is a direct consequence of Fedzilla programs begun in the 1960s purportedly aimed at 'helping' single-mother households, then ~5-8% of black families, and rapidly and permanently increasing to >50% of black families (and rapidly increased in white, Asian and Latin families as well) because you get more of what you subsidize, less of what you tax.

Solution? A good start would be stop doing harm.
Stop actively sabotaging families. Single mother gets married, she loses benefits. Stupid.
Single father gets zero help from State courts on collecting child support. Stupid.
Children who cannot read are bumped up grade after grade, end up in/after high school unemployable. Stupid.

I've got several students in 8th grade who cannot read at 1st grade level. This is not an overstatement. I'm tutoring one on how to sound out words, fer chrissakes, and he is not the only one needing such help, but I've got only so much time.

First and best thing to try, imho, is what has worked for millenia: strengthen the nuclear family, return to the days of parents being responsible for their children instead of gubmint.

Gubmint voluntarily give up its acquired powers after once being allowed into the smallest details of our lives? The People successfully reforming a standing gubmint? Love to see it, actively working for it for decades, zero prospect of peaceful success, imo.

Major upheaval or descent to worse madness the most likely paths, alas.